Note_AD《Talking About Architecture with Peter Zumthor》

多樣性與記憶：與彼特•卒姆托談論建築

2010年11月

作者：尼克•薩耶

Multiplicity and Memory: Talking About Architecture with Peter Zumthor

NOV 2010

By Nico Saieh — Filed under: ArchDaily Interviews ,Featured , Peter Zumthor




Peter Zumthor - Courtesy of Marco Masetti（卒姆托，馬克•馬賽迪攝）

This interview was completely conducted and translated by Marco Masetti, done as his bachelor’s degree thesis in Italy.

這段採訪全部由馬克•馬賽迪執導與翻譯，作為其學士學位論文而完成。

The idea of multiplicity is innate in Peter Zumthor’s projects since his very first works: works of art surrounding us put on various meanings, which do not always remain on parallel levels combining well with dialectical relationships. The vague is planned strictly, holding by the rules of the architectural language. Beauty is in the undetermined, the multiple, but it is obtainable only through precision. Multiplicity of objects is shown only when who is living with them can distinguish their single parts and, at the same time, can see the work in its wholeness. This throw back to the “unitary” character of architecture, in which every part is in relation with the others and together they give a sense to the project. Zumthor’s planning is pure: nothing is pointless. In this society, as the architect says, «architecture has to oppose resistance», and react to the naughtiness of shapes and meanings, and return to talk its own language. Original shape invention or particular composition doesn’t take to the truth. Between multiplicity and silence there’s a tense and vibrational relationship, and the concrete idea is in their equilibrium.

從卒姆托的最早作品開始，多樣性的理念始終與他的專案渾然一體；這種理念並不總是停留在與辯證關係緊密結合的平行層面。這種模糊性（曖昧性）是通過對建築語言規則的堅持，嚴謹地計畫的。美存在於這種不確定與多樣之中，然而它卻只能經由精確而獲得。物體的多樣性只有在當與它們一同生活的人能夠區分其各單獨部分，同時還能從整體來審視這些作品的時候，才能被顯現出來。這反映于建築的“單一”特性之中，其中每一部分都存在於與其他部分的關係中，而它們一起則為這個項目賦予了感覺。卒姆托的意圖是單純的：沒有什麼是無意義的。在這個社會中，如建築師們所說，“建築不得不拒絕抵抗”，而回應于形式與意義的俏皮之上，回歸於自身語言的訴說。原始的形的創造或是特定的構成並不引人走向真實。多樣性與寂靜之間存在著一種緊張卻有彈性的關係，而那堅實的理念存在于兩者的平衡之中。

Things determine the spatial dimension of the world, and therefore its knowledge and usability to us. The project triggers a linking mechanism between things, so they can assume a meaning to the user, becoming an efficient tool to know of the world. Things, objects, the world of references, transform our sensations in remembrance. The pictures that come to mind enclose Zumthor’s research heart. Shape is the result, not the reason. Beauty doesn’t come out of the shape alone, but of the multiplicity of impressions, sensations and emotions that the shape has us to discover.

事物決定了世界的空間維度，從而決定了這世界給予我們的知識、對於我們的用途。方案觸發事物之間連結的機械，它們從而能承擔對於使用者的一種意義，成為瞭解世界的有效工具。事物、物體、指涉的世界，在它們的記憶中改造我們的知覺。意識中浮現的圖像限定了卒姆托的研究核心。形是其結果，而非緣由。美並不能僅從形之中產生，而是從這形驅使我們去發掘的印象、知覺與情緒的多樣性之中產生。









Saint Benedict - Courtesy of Marco Masetti（聖本尼迪克特-馬克•馬賽迪攝）



For Zumthor there is a strong connection between reality and living. This brings him to be oriented towards the concrete, imagining “things” and not “theories”. Emotion reveals the “authentic core” of things.

對於卒姆托來說，真實與生活之間存在著強有力的聯繫。這種聯繫使他被指引向具體性，想像著“事物”而非“理論”。情緒揭示了事物的“真實之核”。

From emotion he passes on to remembrance and memory, which are the central threads in Zumthor’s research.

他從情緒繼續走向回想與記憶，那些正是卒姆托的研究的中心線索。

«The world is overloaded of signs and information, representative of things – Zumthor wrote – that nobody completely understands, because they are in turn nothing but signs representative of other signs. The real thing remains hidden. Nobody can ever see it». Zumthor’s architecture has nothing to hide from us: It is a direct sign that doesn’t throw back to other meanings.His architectural gestures remain dipped into the surroundings and don’t subjugate them to disputable formalisms. It’s no accident that his work is frequently categorized as minimal. Minimalist work always depends on a spectator, therefore it isn’t autonomous (or best, self-referenced), and furthermore it gives the impression to contain something, to be empty inside. «At the center of architecture, there seems to be an empty space. You can’t plan emptiness, but you can draw its boundaries, and so empty comes to life». So architecture is emptiness, and if the architect wants to produce beauty, he has to work on light and vibrations (sonorous, tactile…) that spread in this absence. Zumthor gives particular importance to the “metaphysical silence” and its peculiar and precise characteristics, akin to poetry. As George Steiner writes, «silence is an alternative. When, in the polis, words are filled with barbarism and lies, nothing talks as strongly as non-written poetry».

“世界負擔了過多的符號與資訊、事物的代表”，卒姆托寫到，“這些東西沒人能完全理解，因為它們除了作為代表其他符號的符號，如此往復以外，什麼也不是。真實的事物卻一直隱藏。甚至無人能看到它。”卒姆托的建築沒有需要從我們眼前隱藏的東西：它是一個直接的符號，並不回溯到其他意義。他的建築的姿態沉浸在它的周遭環境之中，而不是使環境服從於有待商榷的形式主義之下。他的建築頻頻被歸類為極簡之屬並不是偶然的。極簡主義作品往往取決於一個欣賞者，因此它不是自主的（或最好稱作：自指的）；此外，它給人一種包含某物、中心空虛的印象。“在建築學的中心，仿佛存在著一個虛空。你不能設計虛空，但是你可以畫出它的邊界，從而虛空獲得了生命。因此，建築即是虛空，而建築師如果想要創造美，他必須在蔓延於這種缺失之中的光與振動之上工作（有聲的，能觸及的……）。”卒姆托給予“形而上的寂靜”及其奇特而精確的特點以特別的重要性，類似於詩學。如喬治•斯坦納所寫：“寂靜是一種選擇，在希臘城邦之中（完全查不到in the polis的意思，polis是古希臘的城邦國家，這裡只好作此解釋），當話語充斥著野蠻與謊言，沒有什麼的言說能有未載之詩一樣的力量。”

The process used by Zumthor to reach the memory is the «architectonic dramatization»: maybe it’s the only possible way to remember, because it’s only through emotions that mankind can remember. The monument, as a symbol, is not conceived by Zumthor, who imagines the building as a real place, not a content falsification. «To build a monument, – as he said – where every politician put up his plaque or his wreath, is the first act of forgetfulness».

卒姆托使用的觸及記憶的程式是“建構的戲劇化”：也許這是記憶的唯一可能途徑，因為只有通過情緒人類才能記憶。作為符號的紀念物，不是被卒姆托所構想的；他把建築想像成一個真實的場所，而非對內容的曲解。“建起一個上面懸掛著所有政治人物的牌匾與花環的紀念碑，”他說，“是淪於健忘的第一步。”

In the shelters for the Roman archaeological site in Chur, Zumthor decides to establish an architectural link between the ruins and the city. The building is a filter between internal space and the city, that can penetrate, in the form of air, light and sound, through the thin plates in wood. The impression is to enter a non-temporal field: the space of the memory. Temporality is realized when the work considers the space in its totality, without distinctions between in and out. It is perceived only to (and in presence of) a spectator of the work that lives its volumes, contributing to strengthen the relations between architecture and the spectator himself.

在庫爾（瑞士格勞賓登州的首府）的羅馬考古遺址庇護所中，卒姆托決定在廢墟與城市之間建立一種建築學的連結。建築成為室內空間與城市，那能以空氣、光與聲的形式穿透纖薄的木板的城市之間的篩檢程式。這種印象如同進入一個非時間性的領域：記憶的空間。時間性是在當作品從空間的整體考慮，而無內外的區分的時候得到實現的。這種時間性僅能被生活於其體量之中的（且在場的）欣賞者所感知，同時有助於加強建築與欣賞者本身的聯繫。

In his works, light writes silently on objects the poetry, that is the only way to reach the truth – as he wrote in Thinking architecture. Originality and oddness have no connection with poetry. Air, light, sounds, and materials are the alphabet of his architecture, which speaks of itself, without however stunning us. A case in which (finally) the content returns to be the subject. This is the center of Zumthor’s architecture: they aren’t built to amaze us, as a performance, but they are here for man, who doesn’t have to be «stunned with chatter».

在他的作品中，光靜謐地在物體上抒寫詩意，而這是達到真實的唯一路途——就如他在《思考建築》中所言。獨創性與古怪性與詩意無緣。空氣、光線、聲音與材料是他的建築的基本元素（alphabet原意是字母），它們言說自身，然並不使我們驚愕。這是內容終究回歸於主旨的情境。這就是卒姆托的建築的中心：它們並不是作為一種表演、為了使我們驚異而被建造，而是為那些不必“用喋喋不休去驚奇”的人而存在於斯。









Kunsthaus - Courtesy of Marco Masetti（布列根茲美術館，馬克•馬賽迪攝）



Zumthor has never investigated the theme of the city. By the way in some case it’s possible to distinguish interesting characteristics of this topic. I think of the Kunsthaus Museum’s square in Bregenz, and also at the relationship between building, ruins and city in Koln.

卒姆托從未研究過城市的主題。不過在某些專案中還是有可能分辨出這個主題下的有趣特點的。我想到了（他的）那個處在布列根茲的，處在在科隆建築、廢墟與城市之間的關係中的美術館廣場。

Zumthor always prefers knowledge, thought, order, in a century when man is looking for simple pleasures, immediate and ephemeral. These are the reflections that motivated me to try interviewing Mr. Peter Zumthor.

在這個人們尋求著簡單的、直接而短暫的樂趣的世紀裡，卒姆托總是偏愛學識、思考與秩序。這些映射驅使我試著採訪彼特•卒姆托先生。

敬請期待《與卒姆托談論建築》（訪談篇）

Talking about architecture with Peter Zumthor


原帖地址：http://www.archdaily.com/85656/multiplicity-and-memory-talking-about-architecture-with-peter-zumthor/
翻譯：http://www.douban.com/note/143137111/